Septuagenarian legal luminary and a former Commissioner in Kwara State, Chief Peter Olorunishola, (SAN), started his law practice in 1969. When asked why he was reading a book on Cuban Revolution before this interview with BIODUN OYELEYE, he said he was reflecting on wanton corruption and other issues in Nigeria and how things could work for a better tomorrow. The respected lawyer has at various times been Commissioner for Agricultural and Natural Resources, Commissioner for Finance, (January1973 to July 1975) and Commissioner for Justice and Attorney–General, 1983, all in Kwara State. He speaks on corruption and the constitutional issue which emanated from the Kogi State governorship election debacle
The most current issue in Nigeria today is the apparent challenges in the electoral process as witnessed in Kogi State. What is your evaluation of the development?
What is happening in Kogi State is a very good democratic development. In developing nations, we have to go through some rough times and it teaches us how to be patient and careful.
There is nobody who can make a rule that is perfect; it is when you are going through it that you will see whether you had made a mistake or something is missing or not.
It’s only God who is perfect. Nobody would have thought that somebody would die just before releasing the election result, because nobody would put an invalid on the soap box. So if the political leaders forgot to anticipate tha and make allowance for alternatives, that is only human.
And you know in Africa we never think of death of anybody. You never ask anyone what if you die? He will respond immediately and say you are the one who will die.
That formed the practical basis of the issue in Kogi State. If they had thought about the death of a governorship candidate whose party is leading in the election even before results are declared, they would have made provisons in the law that the deputy would step in and that would have been so easy. So the fact that they had not contemplated it is human, it’s natural and it’s part of democratic development.
Some people have faulted the Attorney General of the Federation for directing the substitution of the late Abubakar Audu through a primary election; they argue that he should have approached the Supreme Court for clarification of the constitutional issue…
What the AGF did is very good. He did not assume to be a perfect person and the circumstances in which we are now, have made things better because now we have finished everything; all interested parties can now go to tribunal. Otherwise, if he went to the Supreme Court, ‘ the election would not have held.
You would have postponed logistics but now, go and do everything together and go and start the legal battle and move up to the Supreme Court.
I think he did the best option. People who are blaming him are thinking in terms of when you have a legal matter and you give it to an attorney and give him, long time to study it.
He didn’t have enough time to study that matter and I think he took the best option. It may not be good, it may not be wise, it may not be the proper thing that everybody thinks of, but you can see that every one of us have different views. So I think he had done the best option in the circumstances.
The Deputy Governor-elect, Mr. James Faleke, has vowed not to attend the swearing-in ceremony if the matter is not settled legally before the January hand-over date. Would that invalidate the process and status of Alhaji Yahaya Bello as governor-elect?
I think even if he is sworn-in and the thing goes through the legal system, they can reverse it. It’s a matter of fact now, but you want to go to matter of law.
Even if he is there, a person can occupy a place for years and you will take him to court saying he ought not to be there and if they ask you why you allowed him in the first place you can say ‘well, I didn’t want to use force in the interest of peace.’ So if he goes and he is sworn in and he takes action, has (Governor Idris) Wada not taken a court action?
They will lapse at the same time and I am sure they cannot swear in the governor before the expiration of the stipulated time frame for that. But I don’t see how his decision can invalidate it because the governorelect will only take another deputy.
When Atiku Abubakar joined Chief Olusegun Obasanjo as Vice Presidential candidate, did Bonni Haruna , his deputy governor elect in Adamawa State not pick another candidate who never contested the election as deputy?
Having looked at the issues deeply, how do you think we can address the apparent constitutional lacuna that the matter has thrown up?
There is nothing to address; the National Assembly will go and amend the law to take care of it. That is why amendments continue. See how long the American Constitution has been; any situation that comes, you work on it. Look at the Negro crisis, they said ‘ok now, treat us as equals but separate,’ they now went again to amend it.
So when you see a problem which the law has not taken care of and you see there is a need for it, you amend it. Even when courts handle cases a lot of times and they see developments that were not anticipated or covered by the law, they will advise the lawmakers to amend the law in line with the right thing.
They can take that hint and then carry out the amendment. Lord Denning cried repeatedly over the Married Women Property Act in his decisions.
It was later allowed that women who are married can inherit the property of their husbands. So as problems arise and you seek solutions, you amend the constitution accordingly.
We have had two elections almost back-toback and incidentally both were declared inconclusive. What does that tell us about the new leadership of the electoral body?
I don’t see anything bad about it. They are the ones to take decisions as it appears to them and they’ve taken them. If it is not correct, people who are adversely affected will now go for correction.
That is why we have tribunals. It is not that decisions will be perfect but go to the tribunal and make your complaint known. You can’t blame them like that for as long as they are operating a system and there is room for ventilating your grievances.
Even the Supreme Court now, talking about the decision in the Rotimi Amaechi case in 2007, have they not veered away from it? Because you now see things develop and you have a second thought. No man is perfect.
I saw you are reading a book on Cuba?
I just stumbled on it and I have never read anything about Cuba before; I just see things about Castro as a revolutionary, a communist and so on. I don’t know how it came. I just saw it on my shelf and I decided to go through it and it is giving me a lot of new ideas altogether.
About Nigeria?
No. About Cuba. We don’t know how the revolution came about, we just heard about the revolution. So it is giving me an idea…
Are there things you have read there that you think we can implement in Nigeria?
(Long pause) No, circumstances differ. In Cuba, the people were resisting economic and social domination of vested interests of Americans and diplomats that were working there in Cuba, were dancing to the tune of America.
It’s like South Africa of old. They held the largest proportion of the sugarcane plantations and the economy there and the people were being used as slaves so they began to resist to the extent that some people went to do guerrilla warfare.
I asked that question because there are people who also argue that some of the incidences we have in Nigeria; Boko Haram, the new agitation for Biafra are also forms of resistance over oppression. Do you see them as such?
These people are still Nigerians. They are within; we have a system of expressing our grievances. It’s not the same. These are just dissidents. If you grant them autonomy, within Kogi, will you not have insurgents?
The Igbiras will say that the Igalas are oppressing them, we want our separation. The Okuns will say that they are suppressing us and if you grant Okun its independence, will there not be insurgents? Ijumus will say no, these people are doing all these and so on. So we have to learn how to live together. They are not the same.
There are agitations by some Yoruba elements in Kogi and Kwara states that they should be made to join their kith and kin in the South-West?
(Long pause) I am not too comfortable about joining kith and kin in the South-West. That will make it a bigger unit and how do you cater for the interests?
The Igbos now are agitating, they want Biafara because they believe they are not sufficiently cared for and as I gave an example of Kogi, the Igbiras will say Igalas are oppressing them, the Igalas are saying the others are monopolising power, and so on. If you go and join your kith and kin, what benefits are we to derive?
But if you are talking about Yorubas of Kogi and Kwara, we know they are people who have lived together before. We can join in social activities because we understand our language. But if we now join, are we going to be a region? So I don’t know. That is why I said I am not too comfortable with that kind of thing.
I can predict what a Yoruba Okun will do, they can predict what a Yoruba Igbomina or Offa will do… but I cannot predict what a Yoruba man from Ijebu will do. We have never lived together. I cannot predict that I will be safe under them.
Apart from the general appeal to live together in unity, are there frameworks you think can ensure that we put to rest some of the agitations?
I believe our problem is that of sincerity, honesty and if our leaders are not doing things sincerely, we can never get it. Trust, confidence, social justice are very vital, and if there is no social justice, people will be feeling cheated. Look at every environment; everybody is agitating, are we not agitating in Kwara State here?
We are agitating because we feel oppressed by people of Ilorin. But are we going our separate ways? We continue to fight it hoping that sooner than later, some people who can understand and who can do well will come up. At the head of it is poverty. If we are sincere and we all have equal access to wealth, things will improve but for as long as some people have means of wealth to the detriment of others, it can never move it well.
Is it not a problem created by our kind of federalism?
Well, from my little knowledge, human beings are human beings. Until we decide to be sincere with ourselves and have equity in all things…
Even within a town, you find people saying people from a particular compound are oppressing the others etc, but if we all have equal opportunities, open mindedness, fair system, not that one is struggling and you can see that he is doing well while another is sleeping and you are giving the one who is sleeping an advantage to the detriment of the hardworking one, there will be grievances.
If we are given equal opportunities and we have a chance of moving, the one who is not doing well will wake up. Everybody will struggle.
So if there is no social and economic justice, we cannot live together. In some places, I know it used to happen in the North; you find junior officers going to head seniors in the school. Where is the morality in that? How will it work?
The one who is more competent will be working under the one who is less competent, the latter will be taking a salary higher than the former, and you are from the same place. Where is justice and equality in that?
Because I am from this town but you are from the next town, so I will superintend over you even though I am less qualified than you. That’s injustice.
Do you see the present administration being able to tackle these issues?
God can handle them. He will use man, but the man has to have the will to be able to do it. Somebody was talking with me and he said Buhari cannot do these things and I replied, who told you Buhari will do it? Buhari cannot complete everything; he will try.
You don’t know the enormity of what we have. But I see that he is signaling that he is serious. If he starts from the top, the ones down will shake; the thing will cascade to them sooner than later. Otherwise the young ones will not take it seriously.
From all indications now, the mere fact that Buhari is not going to take it easy, we hear people returning money, we hear about people doing their jobs. If he goes on like that, then the government officers and people below him will also take a cue.
But some people argue that Buhari is focusing on fighting corruption while the economy suffers?
Those who are saying it are very, very foolish and they are typical Nigerians that should be condemned. Where does he begin? We are not sincere. If he doesn’t fight corrup-tion what is he going to use to build the economy?
Ok, leave corruption, those who have stolen money let them go away with it and I want to build road, I give you contract to build a road, what will you do with the money? You too will just scrape the land and say after all those who did wrong before you went scot free.
No foreigner will want to transact business with us. So how do you face development without preparing the people who will do it? Who will seriously and sincerely do it? You know we had more development during the military than now, because there was instant justice then.
But because of the laxity that we have now… if we are not serious, we cannot develop. The oil sector has gone so bad that it needs cleansing and we have seen some of it. It is not going to be easy.
Now you see the rot and you want to cleanse it but you must not forget that in the night, these people will come and sow tares; people who are adversely affected who will be taking advantage. If he doesn’t cleanse that area, nothing can progress, no development can come. So I think he has to face this and from the level that we have been hearing, it is too much, too terrible.
People you give the trust of the nation, looting our treasuries, hiding the loot. That is why I say those who are criticising him are foolish. It is diversionary tactic. Where is the money to develop the country with? He should go and borrow more so that people can steal more
? Some people are advocating capital punishment for corrupt public officials, do you support?
Well, it is no more in vogue, but when you look at the situation that when you incarcerate people who have committed an offence, obviously serious offence, somebody will just come one day and say ‘don’t worry, go away we have forgiven you,’ And you find that fellow again continuing in the same method, it becomes very tempting, to say that capital punishment can be good. Because of the level of corruption and Idon’t care attitude. I –will-come-back-and spend my money. That is the attitude.
Do you have the same view on this concept of plea bargaining which is now being brought into the Administration of Criminal Justice Act?
I don’t know what the law says, but plea bargaining as I understand, maybe the system has changed, but from my student days as I understand plea bargaining is an America system where when you commit an offence and you are tried and convicted when they now want to mete out punishment on you, you say, ‘sorry sir, I know you have convicted me of this but I don’t want to come back, I have also done these other offences, please put them into consideration once and for all.’ That is what I understand plea bargaining to be, not negotiating crime.
Do you understand? Someone who had been convicted for armed robbery, he will open up and say I also committed it in some other places, put them into consideration once and for all and I beg that you reduce the terms for me. I have never read it in any book that when you steal billions you come and say ‘ok, let’s share it.’ Why are you sharing?
But the EFCC is said to have recovered a lot of money through that?
Ehn, they got money. That is negotiation, not bargaining. They are negotiating our money as if you want to buy something in the market. But crime is not a commodity. First the fellow must be convicted before you now give him consideration. That is what I understand plea bargaining to mean. But now you are doing criminal negotiation.
If you want to do criminal negotiation no problem, but how are you sure… you see you negotiated for some money but what about the image? That means he has bought it also. He is buying the crime and the stain. Even if you get the whole money and he says but don’t call me a criminal, it’s still better off whereas in the administration of justice it is not the gravity of punishment, it is the stain that it gives you. You remember the former Speaker Salisu Buhari case?
The court convicted him but asked him to go home and that was bad enough. But if he had negotiated and was allowed to drop some amount he would still come back the following year to contest election and you would not be in position to accuse him of any crime. We are too anxious about money but not about our names…
Your five agenda for Buhari in 2016?
He should continue his anti corruption crusade. It’s a continuous thing. Then he should ensure that the budget is pursued vigorously and sincerely too. It’s also related to corruption.
He should draw his attention to agriculture since oil revenue is on the downward slide. We can develop our natural resources. Litigation will also follow. He should also seriously streamline the education system to make sure that things work well in our schools. Of course the security of the nation is imperative.
Recently retired Justice Ayo Salami expressed concern over the standard of legal education… what are your own views?
The standard is not different from what is happening in other professions. Everything has become hush-hush, just get there and go. The trainings are not proper anymore, maybe because there are too many people there I don’t know.
It’s in all profession. Go and see Medicine, there are too many and the corrupt system we are having is not helping the situation. In the university education people who are qualified for admission are not getting it but those who don’t deserve to be admitted are taken for one reason or another. What are the teachers doing? Are they teaching?
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