Prof. Itse Sagay (SAN), the chairman, Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption (PACAC), in this interview, speaks on the cycle of corruption in Nigeria, the anti-graft war in the judiciary and the need for youths to demand accountability from leaders. WALE ELEGBEDE reports
There have been agitations in Itsekiri kingdom over an alleged misplacement of funds meant for community development, especially in the Ugborodo kingdom. What is your take on it?
I have been trying to take action on this issue in the last two years. I think Warri has a structural problem. I mean that there is no defined transparent authority to be given dues. There is no authority that can be monitored to ensure that money is actually used for what it is meant for. A few people just collect the community development money and that is the end of the story. Other ethnic groups would not tolerate it but the Itsekiri are tolerating it.
Whenever some Itsekiri groups like student groups come to me for financial assistance, I often ask why they come to me when we are one of the richest ethnic groups with funds being donated by DESOPADEC and oil companies. I usually ask why they often come to a modest earning person like me. Does it mean that there is no provision for youths? In a way, our young ones are also responsible for this problem. In other places, young people demonstrate and nobody can ignore them but everybody is keeping quiet. They know those who are looting and nobody is saying anything. I offer assistance to them but unhappily because I felt they have not displayed vigour and to challenge the looters.
Some women and youths from the area, led by Chief Mrs. Rita Lori-Ogbebor visited you and submitted a petition to you as Chairman of PACAC. What are you going to do to their request?
I am definitely going to take this matter up but we need to have a structure that would properly handle and monitor the use of funds for what they are meant for. If the funds are mismanaged it would be possible to identify whoever is responsible and prosecute the person. It is very sad that this is happening in Itsekiri land. The Ijaw will not accept it and the Urhobo will not accept it. I don’t know why we are accepting it. I hear of 12 disciples who are collecting money and they are not doing anything. Some of them have about N40 billion in their accounts. Yet, Itsekiri nation is poor, wretched and deteriorating and nobody is doing anything about it.
Apart from me taking this action, I think there is a need for the youths to get together and issue a strong statement that they would no longer tolerate the looting. Prevention is better than cure. What we are trying to do is to find a cure but it could have been prevented. The youths should confront this problem frontally. No Igbo person or Hausa person can do that to his people, it is only the Itsekiri that can do it. This is something that is relatively new in Itsekiri land because in 1979 during the Shehu Shagari era, there were some structures and things were being done in an organised fashion because men of integrity were in charge. I will take up this issue but I am appealing that the youths should be organised since the women are already organised. When women and youths work together, the people doing so would be exposed and prosecuted. They have even called me severally to say that I am the one writing letters to the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) and I asked them if writing letters was an offence. The grassroots should rise up in rebellion against these people.
There are different perceptions about the activities of the EFCC. How would you situate the performance of the anti-graft agency in the light of viewpoints on its operations?
Since Muhammadu Buhari became the President, the EFCC has become very dynamic. A lot of energy is drawn from the government that is in place. If a government in place is in fact the one that tolerates corruption, then its very discouraging for the anti-corruption agencies. But when somebody came who has a clear determination to eliminate corruption and won’t tolerate any graft, they drew energy from that. That is what we are seeing now with the EFCC becoming dynamic and going after anybody who is dealing with the resources of this country in a dishonest or fraudulent manner.
What are the challenges in fighting corruption?
The challenges are quite numerous. The people who are corrupt and those who benefit from corruption are many and very powerful. Most of the elites, in other words, our class, the so-called educated people, the people who are owing down jobs and businesses and so on, the vast majority of them, are in favour of continued corruption because they have got used to having money and other resources which they don’t earn. So, the culture of unearned income has become established and these group of people are determined that such culture should continue and that is what this government wants to stamp out. Our class of people, fellow lawyers, Perm Secs, businessmen, others derive income from corruption. So, the enemies of this anti-corruption struggle are many and powerful. It’s a big struggle.
But the argument from some quarters is that President Buhari is not corrupt but he is surrounded by corrupt people?
I have heard that narrative too, of course, some of them will except he is not Nigerian. But what I can say is that once that corruption is exposed they will receive the same treatment as others who are not close to Buhari. There is no mercy and discrimination. The former Secretary to the Federal Government is being prosecuted now after he was relieved of his appointment. This is going to happen to everybody who has been exposed as being corrupt, there is no hiding place.
What is your take on the ruling of the Code of Conduct Tribunal (CCT) on the former Chief Justice of Nigeria, Justice Walter Onnoghen?
The ruling has shown that nobody is above the law. These Senior Advocates and some of these judges wanted to create privileged classes who have powers to judge others and send them to prison but they commit crimes and find immunity for it. I find that absolutely unacceptable. We can see from what has happened the quality of some of these senior lawyers.
Once adversity started, once it was clear that the Chief Justice was going to lose the case, did you see them with him again? They stopped going to the court with him, they are all opportunists. They are people who want to be seen in the public so that they can be recognised and remembered when money is being shared and so on. It’s a shame but I think the principle has been established and that is nobody is above the law. I also think we can admit that there is serious problem with our judiciary and there is need for cleaning. If that level is not clean, then the rest of the country will remain unclean.
But there are insinuations that the treatment meted out to the former CJN was political, sort of?
I heard that too but there was no evidence to that effect. What has happened is that somebody in a high position has not met the standard of that position. When this charges was first brought against the CJN, what happened was scandalous.
His friends and acolytes started jumping from one court to another, seeking unnecessary injunctions; they even went to the National Industrial Court. They even went to the Appeal Court when there is nothing to appeal. So, they didn’t handle the matter with dignity and respect that his office demands. At the time he should have resigned honorably, he decided to fight dirty with all these Senior Advocates pushing him on and misleading him. But now they have all deserted him.
Can we say what we saw happened to Onnoghen going by the CCT ruling is the trend in the judiciary?
This is a precedent and now, progressively, anyone who doesn’t declare or under declared his assets should be ready to face the consequences. If there are others out there, I have no doubt that they would be exposed and the same medicine will be administered to them.
Are you not worried about the spate of killings in the country and what do you think could be responsible for it?
The whole thing is a bit of shock to me because some of these killings look meaningless to me. I think we sort of developed a culture of simply enjoying seeing people’s blood spilled especially in the Northern part of Nigeria. The way it has just rolled and expanded into the present situation is a bit shocking. I think the government appreciates it and you can see what the Inspector-General of Police is doing about it, strengthening the various groups, patrolling and the Air Force has joined. I think some results are begiing to come out and a lot of them are either being arrested or killed; the bandits and murderers are being dealt with progressively. I think by the end of six months from now, after this intensive response from the Federal Government, we should still very little of it. It’s a shock because it was unprovoked. People just coming from the bushes, coming down to kill and burn innocent men, women and kids, its quite unNigerian.
Do you foresee any political dimension in the killings?
I don’t know and I am not aware of any. Nigeria is a strange country, but I won’t be surprised if somebody was behind it just to discredit the current government. I won’t be surprised, its quite possible.
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