Prelate of the Methodist Church Nigeria, Chukwuemeka Uche, is known for his outspokenness. In this interview with Senior Correspondent, ARAMIDE OIKELOME, he airs his views on the postponement of the general elections, the clamour for Interim Government and the capability of the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) under Attahiru Jega to conduct free and fair elections. Excerpts:
When you look at the nation’s polity today, especially what the politicians have made out of it, what are the things that bother you?
What bothers me now is the radicalism and immaturity on the part of Nigerian politicians. They don’t seem to be matured; they behave like infants. In fact, if you look at them in the Houses of Assembly, political campaigns, there is what we call in Psychology infantile aggression. That is what they are manifesting. These people don’t see themselves as servants of the people. They see themselves as masters; and they see themselves as the owners of Nigeria.
It will be foolishness on my part to think that Methodist Church of Nigeria belongs to me because God has given me the privilege of being the number one person and the leader of the entire people. And I am leading people that are professionals in various professions: professors, journalists, business gurus, ambassadors, local women and many counting in millions. I cannot deceive myself that I am their boss. I see myself as their servant and I behave myself as their servant. That is why we consult before we do anything; various leaders from various parts of the country will gather under a very serene and cordial atmosphere and we make sure everybody is carried along.
But, it is also people like them saying if I don’t rule Nigeria everything will disintegrate; because some people are calling for mutiny. Some people are sponsoring Boko Haram. We now know that some politicians are sponsoring them because they are saying that they may cause confusion so that the elections do not hold. Why are they doing so? God will expose everything at the end of the day.
I am not impressed. They know the situation was dicey. In fact, the postponement of the elections was a prayer answered because most of us were fasting and praying. If elections had held at that time, there would have been bloodshed. I believe that tempers are cooling down now; and some people are coming to their senses.
There is a trend in Nigeria that the church has become a place where politicians go to curry favour. Do you see this as a healthy development?
It is not. I saw some hungry pastors on television; they want to make money. You can’t see me in that kind of thing; you can’t see Okogie; you can’t see Makinde; you can’t see Okoh; you can’t see us. Somebody wanted to address us in our convention held weeks ago, and there was a promise that they were going to pay about 80 per cent of the bill, which ran into N50 million. And if I had agreed, they would have come to my house and dropped the money. I said: “No. The climate is not favourable. Don’t come. I don’t want any party here. Stop that, if we don’t have money, we will drink garri. After all, we are going for prayer.” I rejected it. I knew they were not happy. Those people are not happy. But, I don’t care. For me, integrity matters more than money. I cannot sacrifice my name for money. My name is of more value in the presence of God, before God and before humanity. Now they are saying that pastors were given N6 billion. I sleep well because it doesn’t concern me. You can’t trace a kobo to my pocket. It depends on who is a pastor. You know now, there is no job in Nigeria. And people who are failures, when they move around, it is easy to go to a bookshop or a collaring factory, buy collars, buy a coat and a shirt and wear a chain like me. And most of them are Regional, General and all these things. Some of them answer Rt. Rev. Prof. Dr. (laughter).
Today, it is like the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) is not as strong as it used to be. What is the cause of this?
I used to be a strong supporter of CAN. I go there no matter who is leading. Some of us in the mainline churches are looking down on the Pentecostals. Pentecostals have credible men who are leading. Look at somebody like that of Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG), Pastor Enoch Adeboye; that of Covenant Church (University), Bishop David Oyedepo (of Winners’ Chapel). There are many people that are credible there. Why must you look down on them? And they are qualified; they are very educated. I support CAN 100 per cent. I still attend their meetings and I offer my suggestions. I give counsel. So, I don’t support anybody that looks down on others. You don’t look down on others and treat people with ignominy. It is not fair. You shouldn’t be proud and think that others are nonentities. No, it shouldn’t be so. We should adopt the spirit of live and let live. Everybody has value; all these appellations and paraphernalia, attachments and titles are for here. When you go down the grave, it is no more. God does not look down on anybody. God gives value and maintains that life is sacred. That’s why He said, “Thou shall not kill.”
Well, we are doing something to bring everybody to CAN. That is the essence of the meeting we attended on Tuesday and all the blocks were represented. We spoke with one voice and decided that no Christian youth should involve in thuggery. Go and vote, exercise your franchise and go home; we are not going to kill. You know, we have suffered a lot.
When we were deliberating, there were some film clips we watched, and we were weeping. You see where a Christian man is brought before his family and he is slaughtered as a goat, and dismembered just because he is a Christian. They are saying the thing (insurgency) is not religious. How is it not religious when you are selective? If you go to Borno State, the nine local governments affected are all Christian local governments. Why?
I don’t want to read their minds; maybe they don’t want Christians to cast their votes. That is how I look at it. Truth is bitter. May be they don’t want Christians to cast their votes so that when they come, no Christian should be voted for. You don’t advocate that anybody should be treated badly on the basis of religion. You hear of somebody who has stolen money and he now goes to the public and makes sure he gives salt and rice and you vote for him. You mortgage your future and the future of your children. It is not fair; people are hungry and I am sorry, it has gone to every profession.
Do you also agree that clergymen should not take sides with any political party?
For me in Methodist Church, we came up with a decision during our Bishops Conference some six seven years back, I think in 2011. We said that any Methodist minister that wants to go into partisan politics should first resign; give us a letter of resignation. But, if at the end of the day, for instance, when I was in Enugu as the Archbishop and when I was in Owerri as the Bishop; In each of these areas, government usually approached me. The governor might say; Your Grace or Your Eminence or whatever, please we need a credible minister of God to be in this Board to be the Chairman of this Board. I will look round and write recommendation for a minister and he will be taken. If you go to the state governments in the states where I had served, I have reverend ministers who are either in the Education Board or Pilgrims Board or sometimes State Radio, somebody who will be a Chaplain. I do recommend them and they go to serve. But, it is not their main profession; The only benefit is that when they go to serve and we know they are there, we only give them allowance. That saves the church some money. But, you cannot go and carry card and be partisan. If you do it, that day I will invite you to my office and force you to resign. That is our policy. So, when I see….., Well, let me not say more.
Okay we have also had about proposition for Interim Government and the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) Chairman, Attahiru Jega, has just said that he cannot guarantee that elections will hold as rescheduled. In case the election is scuttled, will there be any justification for formation of Interim Government?
Elections cannot be scuttled. Every other thing may be sacrosanct; but, that of governorship or governance is not. If you look at the Constitution, there is a provision that where there is a stalemate, that the incumbent can continue for six months. That is what is provided in the Constitution. So, I don’t think that there will be an interim administration. People are gearing for that. I have privileged information, many months before it was made public. And at the circle where we discuss is a mixture of intellectuals, not only Christians. It was mentioned and we said it is a very retrogressive step. We don’t want interim government because interim government means that soldiers will come or police; we don’t want it. We should pray as I am praying that election holds on March 28.
But, the problem is that only conditions will cause a military intervention. If for instance A wins and B begins problem, there might be military intervention. Or B wins and A says ‘No’; so, it is in their hands. So they shouldn’t blame them if they come in. The politicians are to blame if there is interim government. Anybody dreaming about that is building a skyscraper in the sky; and it can’t stand because it has no foundation. And I want to tell you that we are not naive. If we unite as leaders in Nigeria, Christians, Muslims that means we have one mind, we can take away any government. I don’t know if you are conversant with what happened in Egypt. The Egyptians demonstrated it. So, we can say ‘no’. Nobody has a monopoly of problems. As I am sitting now in this place, do you think that if I issue a paper and say all Methodists, men, women, young men come to the street; don’t eat for one month; and another religion leader does it and another Islamic leader does it, there will be commotion? Even the leaders will run away. If we are going to Aso Rock or Alausa, they can have many people and ready to kill. But at a time, they will run away. But, the point is that they say that Nigerians are the happiest people in the world. They smile and they laugh and they dance under suffering. That’s why people have said; that Nigerians are the happiest people even when they are dying they are dancing and singing. So, that is the problem we have; but we can say ‘no’. We can say ‘Enough is enough’. We can say it. But, I am not calling for insurrection. People should allow votes go on and let vote count and let there be no manipulation. If it goes this way, just allow it. If it goes the other way, just allow it. Whoever emerges, let him rule. The voice of the people is the voice of God. When people elect is God that has elected. So, we should allow sleeping dogs to lie. Nigeria is ours.
But, you know, another problem we have in this country is illiteracy. Illiteracy to me does not mean that you did not go to school. Some are educated illiterates. They are myopic. They don’t see beyond their nostrils. If you are bound, you think and act reasonably. You do not have to hurt anybody, they must be fundamental human rights. For instance, when I move around Lagos, I feel disgraced and ashamed when I see gentlemen in their suits walking along the road and the opposite folk exposing what they are not supposed to expose.
What is your assessment of the performance of INEC so far?
For me, when Jega won my heart as a lover of the Lord in 2011, the election was adjudged as credible. Where I was in the polling booth, those people who thought would win failed woefully. He conducted an election in Anambra that is controlled by APGA. In Ekiti that was controlled by APC and in Edo under Oshiomhole, he conducted the elections on a free and fair basis. What people don’t know is that Israel has grown to 8.5 million and some of these West African countries are less than two million. But, that somebody is organising elections for this country that is up to 60-70 million is not easy. They are doing their best. They have produced so many cards, but the problem is distribution. I heard that some PVCs were stolen. I don’t know by whom. I heard that there was double or triple registration. If they are truthful to themselves, they should know who the people are.
As for me now, you know, I came from Enugu on November 6, 2007. They have assured me and I cannot go to vote in Enugu. So, I went for a change. They have done the change and transferred our TVC and PVC to Lagos and Lagos is saying we are going to vote. So, I was very happy. I heard that because of changes they are still printing over one million cards that will come out in the next one week, because, I knew that mine and that of my wife will be among the ones that will be printed. I have the one I did at Enugu. But, I cannot go Enugu to vote. But, they assured me that I must vote. So, if they don’t do it then, I will go to court and I will claim N50 trillion and give it to poor people. I want to vote.
Sir, I want you to address the problem of the politicians on the infantry aggression. What is your charge to them?
Some of this politician do take drugs. If you look at the way they behave, they are not normal. They operate under the influence of drugs. Those who take drugs are people who have inferiority complex. In fact, if I have my way, drug users will be screened out of politics, because, they will destroy politics. They have mental problem. So, nobody that acts under the influence of drugs should be allowed into politics because their mind has been influenced by drug and that is why you see people walking about half naked. If not by the grace of God, it causes madness. Madness is not by nature, but by drug and that is why they abuse and fight. In fact, those who are known to be taking drugs should be referred for psychiatric tests. It should be made compulsory for contestant of any political party to go for psychiatric test and ensure that those carrying out the test on them should not be influenced with money.
How do you imagine somebody climbing the fence? Even if the gate is locked, you go back to your house. See our honourable lawmakers climbing fence with agbada and coat and it was shown to the whole world. It is a disgrace that our honourable men becoming dishonourable. Two wrongs cannot make a right. My people will say somebody who was normal went into the stream to swim and take his bath. He brought down everything, including his pant and placed them on a busy road and when a mad man approached him, he was not patient enough. So, he ran out quickly and the mad man was wearing something. So, who is more of a mad person?
You see, there is impatience in everything in this country, impatience in the family and that is why you see some men beating up their wives. If you are a patient man, you will never raise a hand on a woman, because women naturally are talkative. If you are strong emotionally, you will not hit your wife.
Some within the Christian circle believe that the way to check threats of Islamisation of the country is to have a Christian occupy the presidency. What is your take on this?
For me, a Nigerian is a Nigerian. What determines a vote in this country is the counting of ballot paper and scores. Even if you have the highest number of votes and it is not up to 25 per cent, you are not qualified. So, you must have 25 per cent of votes count. It does not matter whether you are a Christian or Muslim. I lived in Kano for two years. All my security men were Muslims and do you know another thing that happened? That is why in India today, no church has Certificate of Occupancy. But, go to Kano, I have Certificate of Occupancy of all churches.
My driver took them to see their wives and I give them one-week leave for tension to calm down. So, I don’t value you because you are Christian. You are human being. Human being created by God, anybody that goes to preach intolerance is a wicked person. I am not going to campaign on the bases on religion. Let the best candidate win, whoever is the best and I don’t know and I don’t need to determine the best candidate, Nigeria will determine the best candidate. If they resolved that the person that come first wins, let the person be our leader. You know in a multiple language, multiple religions, multiple ethnic society as Nigeria, there must be tolerance. It is basic for us to live together. That is why when I preached on the Armed Forces Remembrances Day, I said nobody can Islamise Nigeria and nobody can Christianise Nigeria. One type of Sahara something that is called junk journalism said that they don’t hear what I said. They took up the Islamisation and don’t talk about Christianisation. Now they said that I was addressing APC. That is absolute misrepresentation. I remember that my preaching caused problem because the presidency doesn’t see me as somebody that is on its side. Then the Islamic people; I was talking Nigeria. I was not siding anybody. There is no money you can give me today that will make me to talk on the area of religions.
How do you think the security agencies can ensure a safe election?
The security agencies should be apolitical. They have right to exercise their franchise to vote whoever they want to. But, they must put Nigeria first. You see patriotism is what we lack. If you love this cou.ntry, you will not talk on the bases of what you have or who you are. Merit should be enthroned; mediocrity should be dropped. If you are in an office, don’t employed people basic on religion or ethnicity. If you set your questions and said that the cut-off point is 50 per cent, if you score 50 per cent, you look at the number and you want to 2,000 people. And those who scored 50 per cent were 2,100, then you raise a little high, you can say 55 per cent, may be by then you got 55 per cent or 50 per cent. When you get the number, you should employ them accordingly. But Nigerians don’t do that. They will look for their brother that has one per cent. We are not mature, so we should be matured enough.
Let me tell you again, I am not praising myself, but you know when there was a crisis in Kano, what happened when I was Treasurer of CAN 1991. Then Evangelists Reinhard Bonnke’s crusade and there was another one Akanuka. I was a Revered in Kano then. Do you know that we got gifts from across West Africa, WCC and I was the stock keeper and I was Treasurer in Bonnke’s crusade? We don’t share the things on the bases of you are a Christian or you a Muslim. Because innocent Nigerians who left their homes. We went to different places, then that time they said the Yoruba Muslims are inferior. So, the Yoruba Muslim and Christians are together. We didn’t come to say: Are you are Yoruba Christians or Muslim? We shared thing equally. Any Muslim from Okene, they said is an inferior Muslim, even among themselves, then, they said those from Nupe were inferior Muslims too. I knew I leant when we had surplus food for children, we went to IDH, I went to the Chief Medical Director and give them food and children that came there were Muslim and Christians from Kano even. Whenever we visited women when they had their Mothering Sunday, women go to Tafawa Balewa General Hospital, Anima Kano General Hospital and they will buy things. The Medical Director will allow them to give them the gifts to everybody. They don’t come to bed to ask if the person is a Christian or a Muslim. Some time they go to Orthopedic Hospital in Kano. You see people hanging their legs as result of motorcycle accident; they don’t ask if they are Muslims or Christians. We give you gifts because they are human beings. That is how Nigeria should be. So, to answer your question, whoever emerges should be allowed to take the mantle of the leadership. That is what I have to say.
What should be the attitude of Christians at a time like this when the society observe the Lenten?
For me, every day is Ash Wednesday; after all it is commemoration of what our Lord Jesus Christ suffered. For me, every day is Christmas and every day is Valentine. In the positively sense, Valentine means the church’s positive love. Because Father Valentine made a sacrifice to save humanity, so, when you committed adultery or fornication, you are not doing Valentine, but you are being selfish. So, Ash Wednesday, well this time calls for serious sober reflection. It calls for closeness to God more than before. Ordinarily, by now, I will be enjoying my tea, fish and egg, before coming to the office. But, I have to wait and pray, practice my faith and be close to Jesus Christ. So, I believe that God is wonderful. Because of this elections that was postponed, now every Christian that calls himself a genuine Christian is praying for peaceful, better Nigeria where tribe and tongue will differ in brotherhood and sisterhood will stand. I pray that a time will come when what is happening in the western world will be happening all over Nigeria.
In the west, I have attended a wedding of a Christian daughter married in the Mosque. I wore my agbada, you will not know that I am a cleric. I have wedded a Muslim girl in our church. It happened, we give them marriage certificate and they are happy, living together in harmony.
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